February 3, 2023

Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!

Be a part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.

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Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2

Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that may revolutionize the way in which the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR health club and produce a long time of expertise from creating a few of the largest health expertise firms on the earth. They’re bringing collectively the perfect and brightest minds that can assist you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.

All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators have to have a ardour for the tech and trade they want to break into, and likewise to construct shortly and keep near the voice of the client to essentially perceive what they’re loving and hating.

Let’s decide up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to the easiest way to gather consumer suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.

Do you’ve got any small ideas so far as the way you go about intelligently gathering that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, organising a Discord? Or do you’ve got particular issues that you simply do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with gathering the suggestions?

Cix Liv: In the event you talk with an individual, like, instantly, it’s type of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody via 4Chan and speaking to somebody via their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?

should you’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on the whole lot. It’s virtually like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which once they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “effectively, I feel it’s best to, you realize, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I feel it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss whenever you’re talking to their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Often [00:02:00] the customers that you simply’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?

And also you’re often getting not a variety of the suggestions of the folks that simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t wish to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?

So for these, you’re gonna must, like, discover it anecdotally via, like, Fb posts or dangerous opinions, and that is why I might at all times chase the dangerous evaluation folks. In the event you’re constructing that shopper product to grasp what’s churning folks from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I feel that getting these three views and possibly bucketing folks in these three issues, is an efficient solution to iterate in your product.

Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.

Ryan DeLuca: And it feels like, I imply, the troublesome half, in fact is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you mentioned, low cost the detrimental opinions, or when any individual’s telling you one thing you wish to like clarify it. And slightly than get extra details about why do they assume that, and what would they like, how would we modify it? Generally you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the neighborhood as a lot as you presumably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, via, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us really within the health club. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply making an attempt to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.

Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our type of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. People who, once they do method it, it’s like this, you realize, they’re possibly rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these folks which can be not less than passionate sufficient to provide us the suggestions that we are able to take heed to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Recognize that recommendation, man. That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Yeah.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you simply’re doing. So, um, now not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm known as REK and we’d like to study much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you determine to begin that and, uh, inform us slightly bit in regards to the product.

Cix Liv: The most recent firm I began is REK. So it’s type of a mix of the 2 prior firms within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the most important studying was how will we attain the folks exterior the headset? How will we make it fascinating for folks to look at? In the event you mix that with health, which you realize, is for my part the most important use case of headsets, the info means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as the rest in VR.

Yeah, really, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we seen. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when folks used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.

So the typical utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However once they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the massive studying from LIV was we have to present what individuals are doing and we have to make it cool for different folks to look at.

The most important studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the perfect retention. And, you realize, I imagine essentially it’s the most important use case of HMDs. Um, so should you mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you realize what is basically sports activities. Proper?

I began this firm underneath this premise that, you realize, sports activities are going to be the subsequent large factor. And the explanation I imagine that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it type of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And a variety of AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my buddy who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?

Or like, “you wish to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the individual’s already there. A basketball is, you realize, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like expertise making an attempt to resolve an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?

So, you realize, there was lots of people who had been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “effectively that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re finally simply gonna churn out and do the true factor.” Proper? Because of this I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I imagine that the issue with VR sports activities is that the last word objective is whenever you change into ok at it, you flip into the true factor.

What I grew to become fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And once they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively related. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you can’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you may’t kill your buddy in basketball.

Sci-fi films type of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities might appear to be, and typically you don’t wish to combat towards the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply observe via with it.

I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.

He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you realize, one of many issues he’s at all times been actually desirous about is, what are legitimate use circumstances of AR that may really exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag sport that gained the primary place for an open pc imaginative and prescient contest final yr.

And principally I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you realize, like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we had been testing issues like House Pirate Coach Area.

So House Pirate Coach Area, it’s thirty by thirty ft, and it’s like a laser tag sport the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we had been testing video games like that, and initially, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty ft precisely. After which the way in which that you simply draw the Guardian with the Quest was an enormous nightmare. So it needed to even be even greater than that. And if it was exterior, we’d must hotspot it, and it could solely work throughout sure occasions of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other large factor that we seen, is that whenever you really bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.

It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It needs to be AR whenever you’re operating. When you introduce operating, there needs to be augmented actuality.

Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled really operating in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d must, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.

Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, should you’ve performed any boxing sport in VR and punched something, proper? I bear in mind I punched a desk one time and my entire hand was bleeding, however I didn’t understand till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”

Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.

Ryan DeLuca: There’s much less ache notion, so I assume that might be good and dangerous. There’s a complete subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a motive.

Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually known as VR to ER?

Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Individuals are exhibiting them destroying issues or hurting themselves.

Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As effectively. As a result of, yeah, such as you mentioned, like, when you do this one time, you then’re not enthusiastic about being within the expertise. You’re enthusiastic about hitting one thing. Identical factor occurred to me once I was, uh, I used to be taking part in one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as onerous as I presumably might. Yeah, I’m not taking part in that anymore.

Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] operating, that concern turns into a lot extra realized.

Preston Lewis: Fascinating.

Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The way in which these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on prime of the individual. Proper? But when that’s off by any vital diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a buddy. And simply slam into them. Proper? I essentially imagine that after you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it needs to be AR, should you’re like operating and doing stuff like that.

However there’s large, large challenges with AR. Probably the most apparent ones, should you begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those move via headsets, they don’t really phase the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up occurring is that the whole lot renders in entrance of the individual. So say that you simply’re, like, competing towards another person. Proper? And that individual is there and also you wanna put a objective behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the objective must render in entrance of them. It might’t lower the individual out and render the item behind them.

So you need to do immensely sophisticated technical stuff to resolve one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same drawback in VR the place you need to, like, phase the individual out. So you need to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same individual, the place the individual is, after which you need to make it possible for the individual is synced correctly.

After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the objective that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small objective, but it surely’ll render in entrance of the individual, even when they’re, like…

Preston Lewis: That’s fascinating. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s fascinating.

Cix Liv: Because of this, you realize, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a extremely easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the explanation we did spell duals had been, okay, you’re punching. It is a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many greatest issues for me that I decide as a hit standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So whenever you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to grasp tips on how to play a sport is extremely necessary. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper likelihood that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that needs to be, like, as slender as attainable.

So we began, okay, you’re punching on the individual, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the explanation it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t must render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we awakened and we had been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was based mostly off the constraints of the Quest headset. Proper?

Like, we are able to’t have objectives behind them. We are able to’t do all this different fancy stuff with no large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us had been simply, “effectively, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s type of the explanation why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the way in which it was.

Preston Lewis: Small little be aware there for our customers, type of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with consumer suggestions and letting that type of information product choices. That was a very good instance you simply gave of taking part in within the sandbox of what the expertise can really do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as attainable within the expertise. So, that’s good.

Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why folks appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to really watch it from the surface. What you actually put a give attention to with REK, was making it in order that different folks can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda means?

Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any kind of great obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Once you’re watching a soccer sport otherwise you’re watching a soccer sport or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digicam existed in soccer and so they had all these partitions all over the place, you wouldn’t be capable of see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which can be necessary, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you may’t do a variety of the shit that you simply’ve accomplished in VR with all these cool environments. Principally the surroundings virtually disappears at that time. Proper? You possibly can’t have a fancy surroundings should you’re making an attempt to spectate. So, I feel that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We might must render one thing totally different for the gamers contained in the headset than what folks exterior see. So, like, within the headset you’ll see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?

Like, all these design choices that you simply’re gonna must make, that you simply wouldn’t must even take into consideration in VR, should you’re designing deliberately for spectating. The last word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch just isn’t gonna be a spell duel sport in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we had been simply, you realize, what’s the most simple factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on the earth can perceive? And yeah, that’s type of the place that got here.

We’ve been engaged on fairly just a few totally different sport ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.

I don’t know if there’s the rest you needed to say about creating REK and like the choices that had been made round that.

Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we really went via the method of making an attempt to get into the LBE sport and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…

Ryan DeLuca: Location based mostly leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?

Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we had been like, okay, Sandbox has all these areas, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you realize? So then we had been like, “okay, so we’ll ship folks {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we had been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 yr previous contemporary outta highschool making an attempt to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half making an attempt to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we had been simply, you realize, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, truthfully. You realize, we couldn’t afford to even strive it.

So we’re going again to approaching it as creating shopper product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the buyer facet. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our greatest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you really get folks to deliver a headset exterior? And I feel that’s an unsolved drawback. And the way in which I like to elucidate it, in probably the most succinct manner attainable, is REK is [00:17:00] making an attempt to do to headsets what Niantic, you realize, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get folks to, like, consider their units as virtually like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.

I do assume that in some unspecified time in the future we might return into LBEs, but it surely’s doubtless gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you realize, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you realize, we didn’t have the cash to do this. Proper?

Preston Lewis: We’ve seen that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many stuff you’ve accomplished, you and the crew have accomplished very well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising and marketing. We type of talked about the viral movies and issues that you simply did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks like it’d be simple to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to combat the notion within the early days, not less than that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy folks.

However you guys have accomplished simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even trying on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the crew on making the tech look cool.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a very good level. So many occasions some new VR health factor comes out or exercise sport, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising and marketing. And clearly that’s not an important factor, you realize, in a variety of experiences. Like, we at all times discuss Minecraft, for instance, you realize, beginning out extra pixelated type of stuff.

It’s at all times, like, man, folks wanna look cool. Like, you realize, such as you mentioned, it’s like no person desires to journey a Segway, however we are going to journey a cool fowl scooter down the street. Proper? You realize, it’s like the identical factor, only a totally different configuration. So, such a very good level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff seems trendy and funky, that folks wanna be part of it.

Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you type of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you’ve got the type of the dorky type of graphics and stuff, after which you’ve got you’re a hero shot. I assumed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually necessary, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that instrument of contrasting. Proper?

And exhibiting folks, like, it doesn’t must be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve accomplished a extremely good job with that.

Cix Liv: You’re speaking in regards to the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.

Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.

Cix Liv: I imply, to be trustworthy, Meta is making it fairly simple, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry upfront. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising and marketing. The Horizons World stuff, I imagine, is so dangerous that it’s taking down our entire trade.

I imagine Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a nasty product, that’s taking down all the VR area. As a result of whenever you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to folks about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty trying Zuck avatar and, you realize, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this area appear to be. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I feel it’s such a nasty allocation of sources, and it’s such a nasty search for headsets that it’s really hurting all of us.

Ryan DeLuca: Among the commercials they make are superb. You realize, once they present, like, what it’s wish to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this large factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?

As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they will make or break it, you realize? And in the event that they do a terrific job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it might deliver us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream desires.

Cix Liv: I might look into the PICO if I had been you guys, I don’t know should you used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is the whole lot the Quest 2 must be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s the whole lot the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as a substitute, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, but it surely’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already an enormous drawback. I simply I don’t get it.

Preston Lewis: You talked in regards to the AR, VR experiences that you simply’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences at the moment? And what makes ’em good?

Cix Liv: I actually like this sport known as Blaston. I used to be taking part in it loads within the pandemic. So it’s a twin sport, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these varied pace projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up changing into, is like, you’re having to do a variety of dodging… it’s actually lively. I feel I hit like a thousand energy an hour taking part in that at full depth. I actually appreciated that.

The most effective sports activities kind sport in VR proper now might be Nock. So should you’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you type of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.

I feel my greatest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute elementary of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You can also make the perfect graphics on the earth, you may make a terrific storyline, you may make regardless of the fuck particle results which can be superb. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.

And you realize what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. In the event you have a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for probably the most opinions on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking software, and so they’re not even within the retailer. And the explanation for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion technique. And the locomotion technique is principally you operating in your palms. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity by any means. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s principally like tag for youths. And the youngsters are in there and it undoubtedly will get offensive loads, so possibly that’s why they’re not in the principle retailer. Nevertheless it’s principally children operating on their arms, yelling at one another. And that grew to become the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another and so they’re simply operating like this.

Preston Lewis: That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.

Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m making an attempt to reload a gun in certainly one of these sophisticated type of first individual shooters, I assume my definition of VR, they’re all first individual, you realize?

Nevertheless it’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m making an attempt to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little components of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m certain I might get good at, I’m certain if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d in all probability like, you realize, don’t have any drawback.

However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.

Cix Liv: You realize Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His authentic video games had been type of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would principally remedy puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is principally similar to Time Disaster on rails when it comes to, like, the psychological math and what it’s worthwhile to do. You realize, you’re going from extraordinarily advanced, and dynamic and superb graphics into, like, principally Cel Shaded Time Disaster.

It was his most profitable title. And, like, I feel a variety of sport builders are mad about that. They usually go, ” why can’t now we have superb graphics? Why can’t now we have dynamic storylines? Why can’t now we have all this different shit?” And it’s like, effectively, if it doesn’t really feel good, individuals are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?

Preston Lewis: You type of alluded to designing in sport mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and other people keep immersed. So what do you are feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade at the moment?

Cix Liv: Nicely, if I instructed you that I’d be freely giving my secrets and techniques.

Preston Lewis: There we go.

Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged the whole lot.

Preston Lewis: Wonderful, inform us your first identify, then. Wonderful. Simply inform us your first identify.

Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual identify?

Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your start identify?

Cix Liv: I feel which you can type of, like, paint the image of what I feel goes to be the longer term based mostly off what I’ve mentioned previously. Which is, you realize, low cognitive load, simple to grasp, motive to placed on the headset is lively, you realize, fascinating for folks to look at. After which the most important difficulty in our area, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can let you know what number of occasions I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety % of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”

Trustworthy to God, it’s like virtually each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you realize, I can’t do this due to Fb platform management. I can’t do this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t do this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t educated to work exterior, so it solely works in low gentle environments. I can’t do this as a result of, you realize, the second you place a weight in your hand, it may possibly’t detect your hand anymore. So you may’t quantify the health.” Proper?

One other large difficulty with growing for AR, is that you simply don’t have entry to the digicam knowledge, it simply principally is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits a complete bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no demise digicam in it, so you may’t simply phase gamers out. You realize, there’s some like laser tag ideas that folks have made with the Quest. They usually create this video and it makes it look so good.

It’s, like, “okay, there’s folks of their workplace and so they’re hiding behind packing containers and so they’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking superb.” Proper? And you then go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is unimaginable”. Like, initially, you may’t flip off the guardian for the Quest until you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, folks on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you may’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous difficulty. After which I discussed the problem of, like, rendering folks on prime of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?

So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You possibly can within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map all the scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that folks present are very conceptual, as a result of you may’t really do a variety of this shit.

The factor that’s aged me probably the most on this [00:28:00] area is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety % of something that you simply consider.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you realize? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s obtained a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for folks to get the headset.

And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you realize, we’re caught in, uh, you realize, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you realize, we’re utilizing the Vive Execs at, uh, Black Field. As a result of now we have to have some kind of solution to do exterior monitoring of arms and palms, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.

And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we want to have the ability to have principally the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you realize, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly might use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you realize, as a result of we’re doing a variety of punching and slicing and actions, or they cope with occlusion as [00:29:00] effectively.

So, you realize, it seems like the whole lot’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you realize, if we might simply get that in order that the sector of view is slightly bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply type of like guess slightly bit round, it might be actually fascinating. However, such as you mentioned, these shared experiences are just about unimaginable with the constraints of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you realize? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we would like? It might be tomorrow, it might be an announcement from any individual tomorrow. It might be three years from now and we simply don’t know.

You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding neighborhood. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding neighborhood, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s at the moment. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior sport, but it surely may need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not a variety of traction prefer it did. They usually’ve taken a variety of that stuff away, particularly talking in regards to the Quest platform, which is the most important platform at the moment, in fact.

Preston Lewis: The following query was gonna be describe your good AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. Nevertheless it feels like it’s staying throughout the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s at present [00:30:00] accessible. Making an attempt to future solid slightly bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, should you construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.

You talked in regards to the spectator side of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous necessary in Black Field VR. We at all times say that the great factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you can construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to really construct a title that’s type of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and you then gotta construct it once more. So, that’s large. We completely agree.

And never just for the enjoyable of the consumer, however we actually do imagine that AR, VR spectating modes might be superb. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so feels like the identical web page there.

After all offers you a exercise, in fact is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And principally, simply, we have to in some way crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.

Cix Liv: I might attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you realize, the 2 essential focuses they’ve are health and video games, and so they appear to be taking health very severely. There’s additionally a extremely fascinating motive for that, by the way in which.

In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you may play a online game per day. And should you can persuade the federal government that it’s a health system, you get away of that limitation. In order that’s really one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they will persuade the federal government that it’s a health system and never a sport system, they will really get away of that limitation.

That’s a small factor I found by taking place the trail of localizing to China.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, man, we’ve realized a lot from you. I feel we obtained like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll undoubtedly be our longest podcast ever, to this point. So, uh, actually admire it. I feel to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard loads about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and slightly little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?

Cix Liv: I assume you’d must observe my Twitter.

Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.

Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m keen to reveal the whole lot in regards to the previous of how I obtained thus far, however a few of the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d wish to hold underneath wraps till we announce it. We’re undoubtedly going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re undoubtedly going to construct a companion software that lets you spectate that. After which, hopefully in some unspecified time in the future, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you realize, all of the stuff that sports activities have.

I feel one of many large issues I wanna depart folks with, that’s one thing that, may be a lightweight bulb second. Is after we had been doing our exams, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been just a few various things that occurred that made me assume we’re occurring the proper path.

Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who had been, you realize, the boyfriend was going to go play towards his buddy. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and mentioned, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was taking part in towards his son’s buddy, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you realize, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he might see his son and he might see how he was taking part in his buddy and all this different stuff. And so these moments had been actually necessary.

However the factor that actually gentle bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, initially, that girlfriend can be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and taking part in League of Legends?”

Like, you realize, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was occurring, as a result of she’d don’t have any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is occurring. Proper? And so that may’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, despite the fact that it was, you realize, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was occurring. And so my large obsession with this area is that I imagine if we nail this, that is greater than all the XR area, as a result of it breaks out of the area like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.

And that’s why I do that. I imagine that if that is nailed, XR sports activities change into greater than all the area, as a result of it may possibly get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, gentle bulb second. That is it. You realize? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you realize, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we cope with in our area is one other query. However, you realize, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.

Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis now we have. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m certain our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as at all times, we are going to put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to become involved in what he’s doing. Actually admire it. Thanks once more.

Thanks for listening to the VR Health Insider podcast. Have you learnt of anybody that must be on our present or have suggestions? Don’t overlook to electronic mail us at podcast vr health insider.com and observe us at VR Health Insider on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. You may also be a part of our Discord channel. Till subsequent time, hold creating and dreaming up the subsequent large factor that may revolutionize the world of health.